DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Topics pertaining to volume setup, boot/shutdown, initialization, DSM update, HDD migration.
Forum rules
1) This is a user forum for Synology users to share experience/help out each other: if you need direct assistance from the Synology technical support team, please use the following form:
https://myds.synology.com/support/suppo ... p?lang=enu
2) To avoid putting users' DiskStation at risk, please don't paste links to any patches provided by our Support team as we will systematically remove them. Our Support team will provide the correct patch for your DiskStation model.
jak0lantash
Trainee
Trainee
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:31 am

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby jak0lantash » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:12 pm

(I have a 19 months old DS415+, still running OK).
I want to be fair, the hardware defect is not Synology's fault. The defective chip is from Intel, not Synology.
But the way the issue is managed is Synology's responsibility.
On one hand, there is Cisco, who published extensive information about the impact of this on their product (look at the huge FAQ) and confirmed that proactive replacements will be done. On the other hand, there is Synology, who didn't publish anything about this issue, barely replied in this thread and actually still seem to be denying this to be an issue.

I have opened a case to Synology Support. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry about their reply.
The ticket:
Hello,

I am contacting you in regards to the known defect of the Intel Atom C2000 processors.
I own a DS415+ that is based on a C2538 which unfortunately for me is affected.
My NAS has been running flawlessly since purchase in July 2015, 19 months ago.
Based on Cisco's advisory, the probability of the issue occurring increases after 18 months of operation.
Being close to the end of the 24 months hardware warranty, this worries me a lot. I have invested quite a bit of money in this machine and am afraid that the known issue will occur after the end of my warranty.


Despite the lack of official communication from Synology, there is no denying that this a known hardware defect in the Intel Atom C2000 processor.
- Intel has publicly aknowledged the known hardware defect:
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/specification-updates/atom-c2000-family-spec-update.pdf
Erratum number AVR54: System May Experience Inability to Boot or May Cease OperationProblem: The SoC LPC_CLKOUT0 and/or LPC_CLKOUT1 signals (Low Pin Count bus clockoutputs) may stop functioning.Implication: If the LPC clock(s) stop functioning the system will no longer be able to boot.Workaround: A platform level change has been identified and may be implemented as a workaroundfor this erratum.

- Cisco on their side has published extensive communication about it:
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/web/clock-signal.html
And confirmed that all Cisco products based on an Intel Atom C2000 processor (ie. sold before November 16, 2016) are entitled to hardware replacement even if their hardware warranty is expired when the issue appears.

- NETGEAR has published public communication to confirm affected devices:
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Connect-with-the-SMB-GM/Important-message-about-ReadNAS-3130-ReadyNAS-3138-WC7500-and/td-p/1228584

- Netgate publicly ackownledged the issue:
https://blog.pfsense.org/?p=2297

- There are numerous discussions online about this defect, including a very long thread on Synology forum of affected DS1815+ and some DS415+ (initially wrongly identified as dead PSU):
https://forum.synology.com/enu/viewtopi ... 11#p469811

- Numerous articles online that provide some information about the current situation:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/0 ... ulty_chip/
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/dying-in ... ent-450238
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/0 ... 18_months/

Please clarify what is the current status of this ongoing problem on Synology's side.
What does all this imply for my DS415+?
Why is there no public aknowledgement of the undenied hardware defect affecting multiple Synology products?
Are Synology products based on an affected Intel Atom C2000 processor entitled to hardware replacement even after the end of the hardware warranty?
Is Synology going to offer proactive RMAs? If so, with what alternative SKU?
"Under Irish law, consumers have up to six years to seek redress for faulty or defective items."
http://www.eccireland.ie/ecc-ireland-is ... ry-rights/

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards,


Synology's reply:
Dear Hyacinthe Jacquet,

Thank you for the feedback.

I have passed your message to our product management group and we will post a follow-up on this topic once additional information is available.

Thanks for your patience.

Sincerely,
polanat
Enlightened
Enlightened
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:09 am

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby polanat » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:50 pm

jak0lantash wrote:I have opened a case to Synology Support. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry about their reply.

To be honest, their reply sounds quite promising. At least you didn't get sth like "we do no observe any spikes in our RMA rate". Really looks like the official statement is being prepared and no laugh anymore on Synology side ...
DS415+ [5.2-5967 Update 3 + 4xST3000VN000] & DS112 [DSM 6.1.2-15132 + WD40EFRX+ Ext1 WDBEMM0010BBK-U3] / Transmission 2.84-10 / Transmission Remote GUI 5.0.1
Samsung SMART TV 3D FullHD UE40ES6307 / Samsung UE32H4000 + iconBIT Toucan Duo Plus mk2 / iconBIT NetTAB THOR ZX (NT-0907S)
TP-LINK TD-W8961ND +2TL-ANT2408CL + TL-SG1008D / UPS Powercom WOW-500U
sanderl
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:34 pm

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby sanderl » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:48 pm

Hooking in to receive updates. I have an 1815+ with stepping 8... sent an email to my supplier and to synology support... wait and see and hope for a new one.

My other DS410 is still running fine and I was hoping to do that with this 1815 as well...
glenndeman
I'm New!
I'm New!
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:46 pm

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby glenndeman » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:48 pm

Hooking in aswell, got a RS815+ and DS415+ with the stepping 8 :(
sincarne
Skilled
Skilled
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:57 pm

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby sincarne » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:24 pm

sanderl wrote:Hooking in to receive updates. I have an 1815+ with stepping 8... sent an email to my supplier and to synology support... wait and see and hope for a new one.

My other DS410 is still running fine and I was hoping to do that with this 1815 as well...


with no talk from sinology i would not hope that a new one would fix the issue
JPM
I'm New!
I'm New!
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:44 am

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby JPM » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:06 pm

Even if there is something which makes Synology's implementation of these chips materially different from Cisco implementation, there's no question that they stand to inflict significant brand damage unless they adopt a much more confidence inspiring approach.

As a longstanding (10+ years) Synology customer, it pains me to see this situation drag out.
jak0lantash
Trainee
Trainee
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:31 am

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby jak0lantash » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:24 pm

polanat wrote:To be honest, their reply sounds quite promising. At least you didn't get sth like "we do no observe any spikes in our RMA rate". Really looks like the official statement is being prepared and no laugh anymore on Synology side ...

As I emphasised that the issue can't be denied, the reply doesn't deny it, but it doesn't address any of my points and still doesn't give any information whatsoever. It sounds like "whatever, we may post something some day, or not".
Anyway, nothing urgent for me, my NAS is still working, and there weren't many people talking about DS415+ (maybe if OP updated the title of the thread...), I just want to have a clear reply before the end of my warranty.
glumr
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby glumr » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:08 pm

I thought I would chip in with my view. Note that I am in the UK and am not a business so some of what I write below is specific to that situation.

I own a DS1515+ purchased packaged with drives and additional RAM in April 2016.

It is my understanding that the Intel Atom C2538 CPU used on the board has a hardware design fault that can cause any motherboard using it to fail to boot.
I do not know how likely it is that a failure will occur but there are reports of Synology units completely failing in a way that would be consistent with a failure of the processor.
(The other most likely cause of a dead NAS being a failed power supply).

My family has personally been affected by two similar situations in the past:

So back to the current issue with the processors...
Synology will not want to annoy their supplier or make any statements about another company's products without real evidence.
Cisco has issued an advisory that products may fail and the scenario seems to match what we would expect from this processor issue.

Synology could do any of the following and some actions require the availability of replacement hardware not prone to failure.

  • Guarantee replacement parts availability for years in the future
  • Offer replacements way beyond existing guarantees
  • Offer a free replacement programme
If Synology really think there is not a problem then the first two actions do not cost them.

At the moment there is not much Synology can do apart from replace units or parts as required. It is up to them how they deal with the consumer confidence issue, what they do will have repercussions for their reputation for years to come.

In my case I'm waiting to see. I have put on record my concerns to the retailer who advised that I contact Synology but there is no point. I will be able to claim compensation from the retailer up to 6 years (UK Consumer Rights Act) should my unit fail due to this fault and I am not offered a satisfactory repair/replacement.

I think I would need more evidence that the Synology units were affected to pursue a claim once replacements are available if my unit does not fail.

I note that the Synology DS1515+ Data Sheet I copied at the time of purchase includes this text:

Resilient and Reliable

In addition to its superior performance, DS1515+ is built for reliability. Four Gigabit LAN ports provide redundancy in the event of unexpected hardware failure while hot swappable drives also help to minimize system downtime during drive replacement.

Therefore you could argue that the product fails to meet its description at point of sale and that would be a whole different avenue to pursue under the legislation.

I think the best we can do at the moment is collect information on failures - particularly how each unit was used.
sanderl
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:34 pm

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby sanderl » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:16 am

Dear Customer,

Thank you for contacting Synology support.

Intel has recently notified Synology regarding the issue of the processor’s increased degradation chance of a specific component after heavy, prolonged usage.

Synology has not currently seen any indication that this issue has caused an increase in failure rates for DiskStation or RackStation models equipped with Intel Atom C2000 series processors compared to other models manufactured in the same time frame not equipped with the affected processors. 

It is safe to continue to use your device, however should you encounter any issues, our support teams will do everything they can to expedite your ticket. Technical Support can be reached via www.synology.com/ticket.

Synology will post a follow-up on this topic on our official webpage once additional information is available.


Sounds to me like its going to be a typical case of "When the steed is stolen, the stable-door is locked".
polanat
Enlightened
Enlightened
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:09 am

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby polanat » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:19 am

sanderl wrote:Sounds to me like its going to be a typical case of "When the steed is stolen, the stable-door is locked".

You don't have to worry so far unless you are a DS415+ owner.

PS If you wait by the river long enough, eventually the official statement from Synology will float by ... :D
DS415+ [5.2-5967 Update 3 + 4xST3000VN000] & DS112 [DSM 6.1.2-15132 + WD40EFRX+ Ext1 WDBEMM0010BBK-U3] / Transmission 2.84-10 / Transmission Remote GUI 5.0.1
Samsung SMART TV 3D FullHD UE40ES6307 / Samsung UE32H4000 + iconBIT Toucan Duo Plus mk2 / iconBIT NetTAB THOR ZX (NT-0907S)
TP-LINK TD-W8961ND +2TL-ANT2408CL + TL-SG1008D / UPS Powercom WOW-500U
Ego Shredder
Student
Student
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:42 am

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby Ego Shredder » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:53 pm

No!! I have a DS415+ which I bought in December 2014 and that makes it 26 months old. It's been on 24/7 since I bought it, although the CPU has seldom been pushed at all, and temps are usually around 38°C and not much more in the summer months. I very rarely ask it to transcode any video or audio, and it just moves files across the network or downloads from the internet. So I am not sure if this just means mine will last longer before coughing out and dying, or whether I will never see this problem. I do have all my data backed up to external USB 3.0 hard drives, and some of it online.
Synology DS415+ DSM 5.1-5004 (bought December 2014) + 2x WD Red 6TB
Synology DS-101j DSM 2.0-0731 (bought February 2006)
bogd
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:00 pm

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby bogd » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:57 pm



Now that's a nice move... :) As someone else already said before, it's the best solution for them:
  • If they are right and the products don't fail more than usually, this will cost them very little
  • If they are wrong, they will incur some costs, but nobody else will know how many units were affected by the issue. (Still, it will cost them a lot less than actually doing proactive replacement of all affected units)

Either way, they keep their brand image intact. Nice work on the PR front :)

And in all fairness, a 4-year warranty on a SOHO NAS is quite decent. So this looks like good news for us as well.

My only remaining concern relates to the fact that my vendor will most likely not honor the extended warranty. So after my 3 years of "standard" warranty are up on my DS1815+, if it breaks I will have to RMA it to Synology at my own expense. It won't be very cheap, but at least it will be cheaper than replacing the unit altogether :)
sanderl
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:34 pm

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby sanderl » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:01 pm

Sorry, 1 year extra is far too little. For a device with a KNOWN defect. What if it fails after 49 months?
HelloHelloHello
Student
Student
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:29 pm

Re: DS1815+ died (no lights) - how to move disks to another DS1815+ without having configuration backup

Postby HelloHelloHello » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:07 pm

sanderl wrote:Sorry, 1 year extra is far too little. For a device with a KNOWN defect. What if it fails after 49 months?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Doesn't affect every chip. They are not going to offer an unlimited warranty. I understand that some people will never be satisfied with their solution. It's unfortunate but that's the world we live in today.

Return to “Installation, Configuration, Migration, Expansion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests