Product Selection?

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SKPhoto
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Product Selection?

Unread post by SKPhoto » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:21 am

Good Morning,
I am looking to purchase my first Synology setup after coming across it at a photographic show earlier in the year.
I would like to find out what product would best suit my requirements, hopefully being able to find a long term solution for my storage needs. I have used Drobo in the past and have been unimpressed as the drive that I purchased was discontinued and there was no longer any support provided!
I am a commercial photographer who basically needs a setup for backup purposes with the possibility of being able to access my backup remotely whilst away on location. Ideally it would be something that can be added to over time.
Having looked through the product solutions on offer there seems to be a few options available. I would really appreciate if someone with a better knowledge of the Synology product range can steer me in the right direction!
Look forward to hearing what people have to suggest.
Thanks in Advance,
Sean

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by Squozen » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:45 pm

I would say if you're just looking to back up photos and access them remotely that some kind of cloud backup service like Backblaze might be easier and cheaper for you. Using a NAS for backup only is rather like cracking a nut with a piledriver.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by SKPhoto » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:25 pm

Thanks for the reply. Just backing up photos is maybe a little simplistic for my exact requirements. I think I should've maybe been a little clearer. I am hoping to back up entire shoots, which would include all the high res processed imagery as well as the RAW files, which in some cases can be up to 100 plus gigs for a single day shoot. So a week long shoot easily goes into the hundreds of gigs! To back this up to a cloud service would literally take forever to upload. Having said that I don't know much about Backblaze. Having looked into it I think a NAS setup is definitely the way to go as it is something that will last.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by iknowtech » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:32 am

Sounds like you would need a pretty sizable NAS storage wise if your talking 100GB per shoot and your doing 50+ shoots per year. That's 5TB+/yr. and that's only working once per week.

I would probably want to start with a NAS that can do 12 Drives in the main chassis. If you do 6TB drives in RAID6 you'll get ~60TB of storage. You can do 8 or 10TB drives but you pay a price premium at that size drive. 6TB is sort of the sweet spot Price/GB wise right now.

You would want to use NAS specific drives like WD Red Pro's or WD Gold's, or the Seagate comparable drives.

The 3617xs will allow you to scale up to 36 drives, with 12 drives in the main chassis.
https://www.synology.com/en-us/products/DS3617xs

Not sure what your time frame to buy is, but I suspect the DS2418+ will be coming fairly soon (12 Drives in the Main Chassis + 12 in an expansion module). I suspect it should be a good value. I'm hoping for built in M.2 SSD cache slots, and built in 10GB Ethernet. I would say it seems likely as lower end models have received those features in 2017 models, and the C3000 Series Intel CPU's it will come with will certainly support that without expansion cards.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by SKPhoto » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:17 am

iknowtech wrote:Sounds like you would need a pretty sizable NAS storage wise if your talking 100GB per shoot and your doing 50+ shoots per year. That's 5TB+/yr. and that's only working once per week.
I know it gets kind of ridiculous nowadays! Thanks for your suggestion - the 3617xs is a real beast! I think this may be a little out of my budget but I do like the idea of being able to build on it. I think I may look at a slightly smaller setup, which can stile added to. Was maybe looking at the DS1517+ or the DS1817+ which can be added to. Thanks for the drive info too - I was going to go for the WD Red Pros 6TB.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by iknowtech » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:10 pm

SKPhoto wrote:
iknowtech wrote:Sounds like you would need a pretty sizable NAS storage wise if your talking 100GB per shoot and your doing 50+ shoots per year. That's 5TB+/yr. and that's only working once per week.
I know it gets kind of ridiculous nowadays! Thanks for your suggestion - the 3617xs is a real beast! I think this may be a little out of my budget but I do like the idea of being able to build on it. I think I may look at a slightly smaller setup, which can stile added to. Was maybe looking at the DS1517+ or the DS1817+ which can be added to. Thanks for the drive info too - I was going to go for the WD Red Pros 6TB.
You might also look at the DS3018xs, which uses 12 bay expansion modules. DS1517+ and 1817+ are using a pretty old CPU that was heavily publicized as having issues. Supposedly Intel has a new stepping of the CPU, but Synology has yet to use it from what I've heard. They did employ some sort of workaround at the board level, that supposedly resolves the issue, but personally I would be wary. Those devices use the Intel C2000 Series, and the comparable successor Intel C3000 series were released within the past month. That's the CPU you would expect to see in the upcoming DS2418+.

If I was a professional photographer and thinking to the future I would want something with at least the ability to upgrade to 10GB Ethernet AND have SSD caching. With the new iMac Pro coming with 10GB ethernet, and the Thunderbolt 3 to 10GB Ethernet adaptors, you'll see a lot of professionals working directly off the NAS over 10GB Ethernet. Also, bare in mind that the more spindles you have the faster your RAID array will be. So if you can scale to 12 Drives in a single Array you'll get better performance than a 5 or 8 drive array. Also keep in mind that you don't want to expand your RAID arrays over the expansion module wires. You would want separate RAID arrays in each physical piece of hardware. So with the DS1517+ or 1817+, the 5 bay expansions modules don't go very far if you want two drive redundancy in RAID6, which should probably be the minimum you would use for something like this, RAID10 would be even better if you can meet your storage needs that way. With a 12 bay chassis and 12 bay expansion modules you can get 60TB in RAID10 with 10TB drives, or 60TB in RAID6 with 6TB drives. Also with a 12 bay chassis you might more easily be able to give up a couple of internal drive bays for SSD and caching purposes.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by mervincm » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:11 pm

10gig ethernet makes a real world difference when moving around files of that size. If you can budget it I would call it a requirement. SSD caching is more of a nice to have than a must have in my opinion. You can also do SSD caching using regular SSD in regular disk slots if you don't get a unit with m2 slots.

Also, don't mess with 6TB drives, each slot in your NAS is valuable, don't waste it by buy smaller drives because they are slightly cheaper per GB.
8/10/12 TB drives are available. by the biggest individual drives you can justify.

Your data storage requirement will continue to explode. 4k video will be on your horizon sooner or later :)

Some NAS are expandable, but only the build in slots are full performance. An entire expansion chassis has to make do with what a single internal drive gets. It is usually livable, but never ideal.

Also think about down the road. maybe 5 years from now when your needs have grown you will likely be moving on to a new NAS. this unit will likely be re-used as a backup destination. Having it full of small drives will limit its usefulness.

I just helped a photographer friend move from a "starter" NAS to an 18XX series. He misjudged his growth, and his time to cull the shoots and organize the data backups. He ended up with some duplicated and this also contributed to his storage growth. With his new NAS he has the space to spend his time on the stuff he enjoys and can charge for. We also repurposed his started NAS an a backup destination, something that is normally offline to protect him from ransom malware.
1815+ (factory patched board) 4GB 5x6TB WD RED

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by iknowtech » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:50 pm

mervincm wrote:SSD caching is more of a nice to have than a must have in my opinion. You can also do SSD caching using regular SSD in regular disk slots if you don't get a unit with m2 slots.
The hope would be if you're editing directly off the NAS that the files you working on would move to the SSD cache while your actively working on them and saving them. Also, not sure if you plan to use PhotoStation, and I'm not sure if caching of thumbnails would go to the SSD's which should theoretically make navigating around in Photo Station much faster especially over 10GB Ethernet. In reality I haven't had a chance to test this myself. Hoping I'll get the chance with a DS2418+ pretty soon.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by mervincm » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:52 pm

I had more luck in creating an SSD volume on my Synology than I did using SSD cache. Read cache didn't make a noticeable difference, and write cache was a mixed bag. Some things were better, and others were worse.

When I created an SSD volume, I could install packaged right on it, so apps were snappy. Also shares had the great IOPS you would expect off of a solid state based share.
1815+ (factory patched board) 4GB 5x6TB WD RED

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by SKPhoto » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:37 am

iknowtech wrote:
SKPhoto wrote:
iknowtech wrote:Sounds like you would need a pretty sizable NAS storage wise if your talking 100GB per shoot and your doing 50+ shoots per year. That's 5TB+/yr. and that's only working once per week.
I know it gets kind of ridiculous nowadays! Thanks for your suggestion - the 3617xs is a real beast! I think this may be a little out of my budget but I do like the idea of being able to build on it. I think I may look at a slightly smaller setup, which can stile added to. Was maybe looking at the DS1517+ or the DS1817+ which can be added to. Thanks for the drive info too - I was going to go for the WD Red Pros 6TB.
You might also look at the DS3018xs, which uses 12 bay expansion modules. DS1517+ and 1817+ are using a pretty old CPU that was heavily publicized as having issues. Supposedly Intel has a new stepping of the CPU, but Synology has yet to use it from what I've heard. They did employ some sort of workaround at the board level, that supposedly resolves the issue, but personally I would be wary. Those devices use the Intel C2000 Series, and the comparable successor Intel C3000 series were released within the past month. That's the CPU you would expect to see in the upcoming DS2418+.

If I was a professional photographer and thinking to the future I would want something with at least the ability to upgrade to 10GB Ethernet AND have SSD caching. With the new iMac Pro coming with 10GB ethernet, and the Thunderbolt 3 to 10GB Ethernet adaptors, you'll see a lot of professionals working directly off the NAS over 10GB Ethernet. Also, bare in mind that the more spindles you have the faster your RAID array will be. So if you can scale to 12 Drives in a single Array you'll get better performance than a 5 or 8 drive array. Also keep in mind that you don't want to expand your RAID arrays over the expansion module wires. You would want separate RAID arrays in each physical piece of hardware. So with the DS1517+ or 1817+, the 5 bay expansions modules don't go very far if you want two drive redundancy in RAID6, which should probably be the minimum you would use for something like this, RAID10 would be even better if you can meet your storage needs that way. With a 12 bay chassis and 12 bay expansion modules you can get 60TB in RAID10 with 10TB drives, or 60TB in RAID6 with 6TB drives. Also with a 12 bay chassis you might more easily be able to give up a couple of internal drive bays for SSD and caching purposes.
Thank you very much for your input - it's definitely been really useful! I have decided not to go with the DS1517+ or the 1817+ For all the reasons you mentioned.
Do you have any idea of when the DS2418+ might be out? It sounds like that may be the right one for me, or possibly the DS3018xs which you mentioned. Thanks again it's certainly steered me in a different (the right) direction from where I was heading.
I'm not in a major rush a second I want to make sure I get this right!

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by SKPhoto » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:44 am

mervincm wrote:10gig ethernet makes a real world difference when moving around files of that size. If you can budget it I would call it a requirement. SSD caching is more of a nice to have than a must have in my opinion. You can also do SSD caching using regular SSD in regular disk slots if you don't get a unit with m2 slots.

Also, don't mess with 6TB drives, each slot in your NAS is valuable, don't waste it by buy smaller drives because they are slightly cheaper per GB.
8/10/12 TB drives are available. by the biggest individual drives you can justify.

Your data storage requirement will continue to explode. 4k video will be on your horizon sooner or later :)

Some NAS are expandable, but only the build in slots are full performance. An entire expansion chassis has to make do with what a single internal drive gets. It is usually livable, but never ideal.

Also think about down the road. maybe 5 years from now when your needs have grown you will likely be moving on to a new NAS. this unit will likely be re-used as a backup destination. Having it full of small drives will limit its usefulness.

I just helped a photographer friend move from a "starter" NAS to an 18XX series. He misjudged his growth, and his time to cull the shoots and organize the data backups. He ended up with some duplicated and this also contributed to his storage growth. With his new NAS he has the space to spend his time on the stuff he enjoys and can charge for. We also repurposed his started NAS an a backup destination, something that is normally offline to protect him from ransom malware.
Thanks for your message. It's good to see that you've had some real world, from a photographers point of view, experience. I will definitely look into purchasing the largest drives I can get and take all your suggestions on board, so I don't end up regretting decisions I've made 5 years down the line.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by iknowtech » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:52 pm

SKPhoto wrote: Do you have any idea of when the DS2418+ might be out?
I wish I knew, but its just speculation. The DS2415+ and the RS815+ are the only two + series left that are 2015 models, and are among only 4 models across the entire line that are 2015 or older. So I would have to think they would be in the next batch to get updated models. Especially now that the C3000 Series CPU that this would likely upgrade is released. I'm waiting myself, really hoping its before the end of the year.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by Pietre » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:34 am

I have a similar question, but have already jumped in without first learning to swim. I have purchased a DS918+ with 2 WD RED 8TB drives. I have a Netgear 8port switch running cables to Hive, Alexa, and Philips Hue. So my question is what should I have to enhance my experience of using NAS. I want to store my photos, Music, and Movies for use where ever I am away from home, and to save new additions to my NAS whilst I am away from home. Am I looking at this in the correct way, or am I floundering? I am looking at adding 2 10TB WD RED drives at a later date.

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Re: Product Selection?

Unread post by Rusty1281 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:42 am

I want to store my photos, Music, and Movies for use where ever I am away from home, and to save new additions to my NAS whilst I am away from home. Am I looking at this in the correct way, or am I floundering?
Thats possible using you NAS in several ways. One is to setup a VPN on it so you can connect to your box from anywhere but you will need to connect to a vpn 1st. If thats not an option for you, there is a quickconnect service that you can configure and setup or you can use a DDNS service and connect to your box that way.

If you go ddns way then you will have to open up you NAS via internet on specific ports that your services that you wanna access require. It comes down to how well will you protect your box to minimize any attack vectors and keep a simple access approach.

Safest bet would be to have all your services running locally ofc and access them the same way from a remote location using a VPN tunnel. That way you only open up a single port to the internet and you can use firewall settings to limit countries that have access as well. Its up to you and how you value your data to stay protected.
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