DS1817+ Coming Soon?

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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby polanat » Thu May 04, 2017 6:55 am

capflam wrote:1. Maybe you should look at the sampling that resulted in that score: 1. Yes, only 1 sample for the Q3 2013 CPU was counted. Hardly a score that one can rely on.

So which one is the winner? N3710 @ 1.60GHz? Another one? Are you ready to provide your own benchmarking? Your criticism ONLY is not something we ALL can rely on ...

capflam wrote:2. The previous poster didn't only emphasize on the CPU but also the lack of innovation overall.

My post was CPU related ONLY. Criticism re CPU is around 90% within this thread. I do not agree with the lack of innovation provided you prove the opposite

capflam wrote:3. No, the outdated, unfit for many CPU is not the only issue for many. However it represents a lack of vision and sync with what customer expect, want and/or need that makes one wonder about Synology's future. For me, it definitely made me rethink my purchases, I started looking at other . solutions so did many others as I understand.

OK, however, pls provide the exact model from the competitor (QNAP or whichever) in order to demonstrate the other competitors "right vision" from your standpoint

capflam wrote:I can't back it up with data, but I am fairly certain that the DSxx17+ release is not very successful in terms of sales

Let's see the future. It is too early to discuss any sales rates for the newly announced models, however I would prefer constructive criticism baked up with data (primarily from the major competitors) rather than pure emotions ...
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby capflam » Fri May 05, 2017 3:08 pm

polanat wrote:1. Maybe you should look at the sampling that resulted in that score: 1. Yes, only 1 sample for the Q3 2013 CPU was counted. Hardly a score that one can rely on.
So which one is the winner? N3710 @ 1.60GHz? Another one? Are you ready to provide your own benchmarking? Your criticism ONLY is not something we ALL can rely on ...

That seems to upset you. Simple fact is that you try to make a point out of 1 sample. 1 sample is not enough, compared to the N3710.
That's not criticism, it's a fact.

polanat wrote:2. The previous poster didn't only emphasize on the CPU but also the lack of innovation overall.
My post was CPU related ONLY. Criticism re CPU is around 90% within this thread. I do not agree with the lack of innovation provided you prove the opposite

Please read what I wrote once again. I mention the previous poster, read his post again.
He made valid points and you are asking me to what again? Sorry, makes little sense, just read more and look at the NAS and its specs is my best suggestion.

polanat wrote:3. No, the outdated, unfit for many CPU is not the only issue for many. However it represents a lack of vision and sync with what customer expect, want and/or need that makes one wonder about Synology's future. For me, it definitely made me rethink my purchases, I started looking at other . solutions so did many others as I understand.
OK, however, pls provide the exact model from the competitor (QNAP or whichever) in order to demonstrate the other competitors "right vision" from your standpoint.

It's ok to love Synology, I did and still love my NAS although it's outdated and doesn't fit my requirements any longer, but I keep my eyes open and see innovation from QNAP for example. In the end, reading comments, actual testing, from other places than this forum as well help make an informed decision. Otherwise you're only listening to the echo of your own voice which is the echo of Synology's marketing pitch.


polanat wrote:I can't back it up with data, but I am fairly certain that the DSxx17+ release is not very successful in terms of sales
Let's see the future. It is too early to discuss any sales rates for the newly announced models, however I would prefer constructive criticism baked up with data (primarily from the major competitors) rather than pure emotions ...

Are you just going to repeat what I said to twist it in a way that undermines it?
That's not emotional by the way. It's a guess which I specified I can't back with data. Where is the emotion?

Seriously...:)

It's ok to be a fanboy (no offense intended, I insist on this as you seem quite sensitive), Synology did and does great for many product lines. Just not this one, most of what I read is in agreement.
We all want what's best for our own needs. Looking at other solutions is allowed and in this case many seem to do just that.

If you're happy with DSxx17+, good for you. I'm even happy for you. Many are not, including me, and it seems to be the vast majority of existing customers that were eager to buy their new NAS and are very disapointed.
That's about it, no need to try to rewrite what others are saying, it's not helping anyone but justifying your own point of view.
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby polanat » Sat May 06, 2017 5:25 am

capflam wrote:1 sample is not enough, compared to the N3710. That's not criticism, it's a fact.

Well, I gave just 1 sample, but you gave ZERO apart from some wording based on nothing. I think, if you have nothing to say (technically) - better say nothing ...
capflam wrote:just read more and look at the NAS and its specs is my best suggestion

Again - if you have something to say - please say it with technical details...
capflam wrote:I keep my eyes open and see innovation from QNAP for example

Very good! Please mention here QNAP innovations valid for the serial device and NOT a device for freaks (Thunderbolt, USB 3.1 Type-C, etc ??? :) ) I can easily prove you the uselessness of such "innovations" in a real life. E.g. why on earth USB 3.1 Type-C is so crucial for the NAS which somehow becomes the DAS :wink:

PS Synology, no matter whether you like it or not is not producing the devices for freaks or any other individual groups of people with specific wishes taken from the sky!!! They are following quite solid marketing strategy targeting on wide consumer community and in my opinion this gives them credit. If you like Apple approach - Synology is not for you ...
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby malooooone » Tue May 16, 2017 6:20 pm

rgarjr wrote:
emilvals wrote:It has been announced on their website now. I'm wondering about the DX517, will it only support the 1817+ and 1517+? I have 916+ and I need expansion, will I have to get the DX513 then? :/


Yeah might have a different connector.


I don't know about going this direction, but in terms of DS1817+ backwards compatibility with the DX513 I can confirm that it works. I migrated from an older generation DS last night and connected up my DX513 this morning and it is working like normal. The port on the DS1817+ is still eSATA with the same screw locations as previous gen, so using the official Synology eSATA cable everything went together just fine.

It is possible that the underlying eSATA port generation may be different so there might be performance left on the table by mixing in previous generation equipment, but I at least don't see any difference in operation in my case so far.
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby pcliga » Wed May 17, 2017 12:56 pm

Hi,

I'm new in this community forum. The last weeks I'm reading a lot of info, benchkmarks and opinions about DSxx17+ models and I'm searching for the perfect desired Intel CPU for this models.

In my opinion the cpu that Synology must used to setup this NAS is this one:

Intel Xeon D-1529 (4 core - 8 thread) powerfull CPU with very low power consumption (20W - a bit more than C2538 - 15W)

There's no Passmark value for this model, but there's (only one) for D-1520 model (powerfull model due to power consumption) and the results are:

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+D-1520+%40+2.20GHz - 6.396 - great values

I think that low powered version (D-1529) may be at 50-60% performance aprox. (in my opinion), about 3.200 - 3.800 passmark score.

Or, if CPU power consumption / performance is not a problem, may use directly D-1528 (6 cores - 12 threads) with a TDP of 35W and no power performance downside (8612 passmark score)

The price is higher, yes, but about 150-200$ higher, I think that if DSxx17+ models sells at a bit higher price but with 200-300% better cpu performance, the buyers will love it.

This is my opinion about which cpu option must been the correct one for Synology DSxx17+ models. Maybe we will see DSxx18+ with similar CPU's?

(sorry for my english)



polanat wrote:
cookinwitdiesel wrote: Braswell would have been better and is what I think a lot of people expected after the use of the N3610 in the 916+

Some people already made such comparison:

Intel Pentium N3710 @ 1.60GHz - 1875 -> http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu ... Hz&id=2730

Intel Atom C2558 @ 2.40GHz - 2169 -> http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu ... 40+2.40GHz

Intel® C2558 vs C2538 -> https://ark.intel.com/compare/77983,77981
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby polanat » Thu May 18, 2017 5:06 am

pcliga wrote:Hi,

I'm new in this community forum. The last weeks I'm reading a lot of info, benchkmarks and opinions about DSxx17+ models and I'm searching for the perfect desired Intel CPU for this models.

In my opinion the cpu that Synology must used to setup this NAS is this one:

Intel Xeon D-1529 (4 core - 8 thread) powerful CPU with very low power consumption (20W - a bit more than C2538 - 15W)

Are you sure that Intel-Xeon-D-1529 is positioned for a home segment? Are you ready to switch to rack-mount form-factor and pay for the unit targeting business segment ???
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby Cerunnos » Thu May 18, 2017 6:35 am

pcliga wrote:Hi,

I'm new in this community forum. The last weeks I'm reading a lot of info, benchkmarks and opinions about DSxx17+ models and I'm searching for the perfect desired Intel CPU for this models.

In my opinion the cpu that Synology must used to setup this NAS is this one:

Intel Xeon D-1529 (4 core - 8 thread) powerfull CPU with very low power consumption (20W - a bit more than C2538 - 15W)

There's no Passmark value for this model, but there's (only one) for D-1520 model (powerfull model due to power consumption) and the results are:

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+D-1520+%40+2.20GHz - 6.396 - great values

I think that low powered version (D-1529) may be at 50-60% performance aprox. (in my opinion), about 3.200 - 3.800 passmark score.

Or, if CPU power consumption / performance is not a problem, may use directly D-1528 (6 cores - 12 threads) with a TDP of 35W and no power performance downside (8612 passmark score)

The price is higher, yes, but about 150-200$ higher, I think that if DSxx17+ models sells at a bit higher price but with 200-300% better cpu performance, the buyers will love it.

This is my opinion about which cpu option must been the correct one for Synology DSxx17+ models. Maybe we will see DSxx18+ with similar CPU's?

(sorry for my english)



polanat wrote:
cookinwitdiesel wrote: Braswell would have been better and is what I think a lot of people expected after the use of the N3610 in the 916+

Some people already made such comparison:

Intel Pentium N3710 @ 1.60GHz - 1875 -> http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu ... Hz&id=2730

Intel Atom C2558 @ 2.40GHz - 2169 -> http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu ... 40+2.40GHz

Intel® C2558 vs C2538 -> https://ark.intel.com/compare/77983,77981


There is the DS3018xs coming out soon, it was shown at CeBIT and should be shown at Computex (https://www.synology.com/en-global/even ... bition-ENU)
It seems to have a Pentium D-1508, which is 2C/4T, and should obtain around ~3500-3800 Passmark (1/2 of the D-1521)
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby cookinwitdiesel » Fri May 19, 2017 2:55 am

polanat wrote:
pcliga wrote:Hi,

I'm new in this community forum. The last weeks I'm reading a lot of info, benchkmarks and opinions about DSxx17+ models and I'm searching for the perfect desired Intel CPU for this models.

In my opinion the cpu that Synology must used to setup this NAS is this one:

Intel Xeon D-1529 (4 core - 8 thread) powerful CPU with very low power consumption (20W - a bit more than C2538 - 15W)

Are you sure that Intel-Xeon-D-1529 is positioned for a home segment? Are you ready to switch to rack-mount form-factor and pay for the unit targeting business segment ???

The Xeon-D can go into whatever system an integrator builds it into, does not have to be rackmount. Take the DS3617xs for example, Xeon-D in a desktop form-factor. If the 1817+ came with that CPU I would have paid the difference in cost but most wouldn't is my guess, the price difference is just too big and as a model targeted at home and small business, cost is a factor. Also, cooling is a big factor in these designs since the CPUs are passively cooled with a relatively small heatsink. Doubling the TDP would take a lot of design consideration to keep from overheating.

If it is a few hundred more you are already most of the way to a cheap dedicated server which could offload the compute and do a much better job. Something easy like a Dell T30. Personally, I only want my NAS doing NAS-sy things, I want another server doing compute and housing applications.
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby polanat » Fri May 19, 2017 3:16 am

cookinwitdiesel wrote:The Xeon-D can go into whatever system an integrator builds it into, does not have to be rackmount

My point was not engineering wise, but marketing wise. I also may say provided rocket engine could fit a car - it doesn't mean tomorrow will be a lot of cars with rocket engines in the market. My point was the more powerful CPU is the more it is targeted to business segment rather than home one

cookinwitdiesel wrote:Take the DS3617xs for example, Xeon-D in a desktop form-factor

Xeon-D is in RS3617xs+ and RS3617RPxs (rackmount NAS models) as well. However, who will buy DS3617xs for home needs???
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby capflam » Fri May 19, 2017 6:13 am

polanat wrote:Well, I gave just 1 sample, but you gave ZERO apart from some wording based on nothing. I think, if you have nothing to say (technically) - better say nothing ..

You didn't understand this at all.
You compare 1 CPU with 1 sample test result versus another with about 100 according to your source.

polanat wrote:Very good! Please mention here QNAP innovations valid for the serial device and NOT a device for freaks (Thunderbolt, USB 3.1 Type-C, etc ??? :) ) I can easily prove you the uselessness of such "innovations" in a real life. E.g. why on earth USB 3.1 Type-C is so crucial for the NAS which somehow becomes the DAS :wink:

Ok, so there goes what you seem to consider a technically specific answer maybe, ok. Well, believe it or not, I know of 2 magazine publishers and 1 videographer very excited about this. It's a real life use case with USB-C bringing improvements. I personally have to hardwire my laptop to my NAS at least once per day in order to get things done faster. It doesn't make my NAS a DAS. It's only a use case, I wish I didn't have to do that though but that hasn't anything to do with this topics.

polanat wrote:PS Synology, no matter whether you like it or not is not producing the devices for freaks or any other individual groups of people with specific wishes taken from the sky!!! They are following quite solid marketing strategy targeting on wide consumer community and in my opinion this gives them credit. If you like Apple approach - Synology is not for you ...

Synology is very much loved by Apple users actually. It's simpler, just works. It's pretty well known that Apple users typically go for Synology.
The rest is a matter of opinion. As far as I can see, Synology isn't mass producing their new so-called "new NASes at all. My opinion is that it reflects how disappointed the market is and maybe that Synology is trying to course correct by accelerating the development of upcoming products, which I hope they do like many others.
There are some exotic products out there, but no I certainly would not call them "devices for freaks".
You're just insulting all QNAP, Drobo and such users. What about EMC for instance? My network admin would love comment of yours, I'll share it now actually :). I am pretty sure that he is in your "freak" group.
Hey, if you only need a file server with 1 port, with limited home type of use, you can do cheaper so why even bother. It's not because you love of product that fits your needs as home user, that everyone should be in agreement with you and be restricted to limited features while they want or need more and that's available elsewhere.
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby capflam » Fri May 19, 2017 6:22 am

Cerunnos wrote:There is the DS3018xs coming out soon, it was shown at CeBIT and should be shown at Computex (https://www.synology.com/en-global/even ... bition-ENU)
It seems to have a Pentium D-1508, which is 2C/4T, and should obtain around ~3500-3800 Passmark (1/2 of the D-1521)

I haven't heard anything new since then. Interesting product for me but it looks like a Q4 type of release. Q3 at best.
Did you read anything new about it by any chance?
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby polanat » Fri May 19, 2017 7:53 am

capflam wrote:
polanat wrote:Well, I gave just 1 sample, but you gave ZERO apart from some wording based on nothing. I think, if you have nothing to say (technically) - better say nothing ..

You didn't understand this at all.
You compare 1 CPU with 1 sample test result versus another with about 100 according to your source

There is no reason to repeat bear phrases like "not right", "don't understand", etc - just one real (I mean opposite) benchmarking example weights much more than tons of words. So, I think, if you have nothing to demonstrate - let's close the discussion...

As for the freaks topic - every admin will prove you how e.g. UCB-C is important because for them the world turns around them and they (admins) are in this circle center. However, key decision makers (including IT Directors), who are responsible for money have quite different opinion. Guess whom the market is listening to ... ?
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby pcliga » Fri May 19, 2017 9:55 am

D-1529 is not positioned for a home segment, of course, but a NAS with 4 x 1 Gb ethernet ports, possibility to install 2 x 10Gb ethernet ports and 8 HDD bays is positioned for home segment? Are you sure? Some people may be using it for home purposes, but this NAS is for small/mid enterprises (1-20 employees), in my opinion.

The D-1529 is only 5W TDP higher than actual C2538 cpu, and a lot more CPU performance, the extra cost for this cpu is 200-300€/$, which is the extra cost of M2D17 expansion card? which is the extra cost of 10Gb PCIe compatible network card? I would love to have 2 or 3x more CPU performance than the feature of having ssd cache.

Of course, is my particular case, but I think that more Synology customers think as I.

The DS3617 is an incredible NAS, I had a DS3612xs until four months ago and I decided to sell it because the power consumption is excesive, 3 x more than DS15xx/DS18xx/DS24xx.

I have one more option for DS1517/DS1817 that could be a great option:

Intel Core i5-7Y54 2C/4T - Intel HD 615 GPU, with 3.425 passmark score and a TDP of only 4,5W (7W with turbo) ¡Wow!

or if you prefer other option:

Intel Core i3-7100U 2C/4T - Intel HD 620 GPU, with 3.824 passmark score and the same TDP as actual CPU (15W)

or:

Intel Core i5-7200U 2C/4T - Intel HD 620 GPU, with 4.706 passmark score and 15W TDP (max of 25W with turbo activated and min of 7,5W with low cpu load)

There's a lot of better options (1,7x better performance, the alternative with less power of previously listed), currently in market, and Synology has decided to use a 4 years old cpu model.

What do you think about this ones?

Of course, I think that D-1529 is better option for an extra higher cost and a really better cpu performance (ideal for new DSM virtualization features and other customer needs).


polanat wrote:
pcliga wrote:Hi,

I'm new in this community forum. The last weeks I'm reading a lot of info, benchkmarks and opinions about DSxx17+ models and I'm searching for the perfect desired Intel CPU for this models.

In my opinion the cpu that Synology must used to setup this NAS is this one:

Intel Xeon D-1529 (4 core - 8 thread) powerful CPU with very low power consumption (20W - a bit more than C2538 - 15W)

Are you sure that Intel-Xeon-D-1529 is positioned for a home segment? Are you ready to switch to rack-mount form-factor and pay for the unit targeting business segment ???
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby polanat » Fri May 19, 2017 9:44 pm

pcliga wrote:D-1529 is not positioned for a home segment, of course, but a NAS with 4 x 1 Gb ethernet ports, possibility to install 2 x 10Gb ethernet ports and 8 HDD bays is positioned for home segment? Are you sure? Some people may be using it for home purposes, but this NAS is for small/mid enterprises (1-20 employees), in my opinion.

The D-1529 is only 5W TDP higher than actual C2538 cpu, and a lot more CPU performance, the extra cost for this cpu is 200-300€/$, which is the extra cost of M2D17 expansion card? which is the extra cost of 10Gb PCIe compatible network card? I would love to have 2 or 3x more CPU performance than the feature of having ssd cache.

My point was CPU wise. I had no intention to discuss any peripherals. E.g. my home DS415+ also has Intel Atom C2538

pcliga wrote:The DS3617 is an incredible NAS, I had a DS3612xs until four months ago and I decided to sell it because the power consumption is excesive, 3 x more than DS15xx/DS18xx/DS24xx.

I have one more option for DS1517/DS1817 that could be a great option:

Intel Core i5-7Y54 2C/4T - Intel HD 615 GPU, with 3.425 passmark score and a TDP of only 4,5W (7W with turbo) ¡Wow!

or if you prefer other option:

Intel Core i3-7100U 2C/4T - Intel HD 620 GPU, with 3.824 passmark score and the same TDP as actual CPU (15W)

or:

Intel Core i5-7200U 2C/4T - Intel HD 620 GPU, with 4.706 passmark score and 15W TDP (max of 25W with turbo activated and min of 7,5W with low cpu load)

There's a lot of better options (1,7x better performance, the alternative with less power of previously listed), currently in market, and Synology has decided to use a 4 years old cpu model.

What do you think about this ones?


What do I think about Intel Core i3/i5 - the answer is dead simple - you will never buy such potential NAS just because of the price. Your criticism stops momently once you have to open your wallet in order to make it lighter for about $999 :lol:
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Re: DS1817+ Coming Soon?

Postby capflam » Tue May 23, 2017 3:26 pm

polanat wrote:There is no reason to repeat bear phrases like "not right", "don't understand", etc - just one real (I mean opposite) benchmarking example weights much more than tons of words. So, I think, if you have nothing to demonstrate - let's close the discussion...

Comparing 1 sample test to 100 is possibly misleading because not statistically significant. That is a fact, it actually demonstrate the lack of technical background that you use to support your claims. Yes, it shows misunderstanding, no, in that message I didn't say "not right", please read and at least if you want to make a point review all variables at play.
But like you, I have no interest in a conversation with someone who will post anything to support what the vast majority, including people better versed in the specifics of the devices in the industry, consider a very underwhelming release.

polanat wrote:As for the freaks topic - every admin will prove you how e.g. UCB-C is important because for them the world turns around them and they (admins) are in this circle center. However, key decision makers (including IT Directors), who are responsible for money have quite different opinion. Guess whom the market is listening to ... ?

You don't really make a point here, in relation to what I said. Again, let's stop wasting time, at least mine and others - do whatever seems to get you excited on your end.
"Guess whom the market is listening to?" really? Who is Synology listening to? Not core users on this one line of products for sure.
You should buy it, if it meets your needs and find the DSxx17+ be such a great technological improvement. I and so many others, the majority as per all that I can read, beg to differ. That's about it in the end.
Take a chill pill (and check your facts next time eventually).

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